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combatshotgun

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I have been told by several people that they have no concerns about any long term emergency planning as they have gold and silver in their safe.   The folly behind that line of thinking is this.  In a short term emergency that works fine but in a serious long term scenario that metal ain't worth spit.  You can't eat it, shoot it, drink it or heat with it.  You can't heal a wound or pull a tooth with it.  If things are bad enough all the Gold they have won't get them an ear of corn.

My Grandpa told me that during the depression you could walk into any speakeasy in Little Rock and lay a 32/20 cartridge (very popular hand gun of that day) on the counter and get a shot of top shelf Canadian Whiskey.  He said "Bullets are money Boy" and talked about having to pay ten cents for five .22 shells one time.  But those shells put food on the table.  Ammo may be one of the best items for barter if you have the quantities like I have.  I have more then I would ever need and can trade for items I am running short on.  I am going to start another post about what would be the best calibers for barter but let's let this one run for a while so people understand the importance of it.

In a long term situation people are going to establish a place to meet for trade.  It may be a corner in a neighborhood or the town square of a small town.  In a rural area it could simply be at an intersection of two roads or at a church.   There will be a place to go to barter, count on that.  So if you have a surplus of items and lack others you will be going there to trade.

What is going to be bartered for in a long term situation?  These are not necessarily in order of your priority as everyone's need are different.

1.  Food.  Everyone needs it and few will have it.  Most do not have long term food stores on hand and live day to day with most likely less then five days of food on hand.

2.  Water.   You don't need as much to drink as you think if you have plenty of food as you get water in the foods you eat.   Being most of the long term storage foods require water to re-hydrate water is going to be an issue.  Of course this depends on where you are.   We have a long term water storage facility here called lake Michigan and I close enough to it that water is not a concern.  I also have a spring fed stream very close.  In a short term situation most of you have a large supply of potable water already.   Your hot water tank.  I have 80 gallons there and another 30gals in the pump take in the crawl space.  There could be a scenario where local lakes are contaminate so counting on a lake may not be best course of action.  If ground water becomes contaminated we are screwed. 

3.  Fuel.   Heat is a major issue here in the north and fuel is need for cooking also.  Fuel for generators, gas for vehicles to go out and collect fuel or food will be at a premium.   Pellet stoves are a good think to have for emergency heat and a few pallets of pellets can go a long way.

4.  Guns and ammo.   You have to be able to protect yourself and family and also protect your food stores.  I personally feel that having less then a thousands rounds of ammo in the caliber of any weapon I own negates it as firearm and makes it simply a Billy Club.  But I am weird.  Still a sufficient amount of ammo with enough on hand to barter for items with can save your life.

5.  Medical Supplies.   I have put a lot of thought into this one and have built a medical kit to handle minor injuries.   Major injuries that would be routine in normal times can be deadly when 911 does not work.  I have a neighbor who is an RN and will be part of our Emergency plan and that is comfort but not every one has that.   So when planning this be sure to include books on illness and treatment so you will know what you are dealing with.  You already have a lot of these things in your home but make sure.  A medical kit is an item that has to be update as basic medication expire so keep up on this one.  Don't over look things like Alcohol, Calamine Lotion, Hydrogen Peroxide, Clove oil (for tooth aches) as old school items like these have long term shelf lives.  Infections kill and wound care will be a critical part of first aid.

6.  The Worlds Oldest Profession.   Don't think for one minute this will not be a major barter in a scenario where civilian law is none existent.   Always has been and always will.

A friend asked me what was the point to all of this?   In a major global incident like a globe killing meter, nuclear winter and others what is the point of surviving?   I replied that I did not know the answer other then I am a stubborn Jar Head and will fight with every thing I have to get that last possible second life.   I recommend finding the Movie "The Road" and watch that.   It will make you think.




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entropy

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
4.  Guns and ammo.   You have to be able to protect yourself and family and also protect your food stores.  I personally feel that having less then a thousands rounds of ammo in the caliber of any weapon I own negates it as firearm and makes it simply a Billy Club.  But I am weird.  Still a sufficient amount of ammo with enough on hand to barter for items with can save your life.


There is the flip side of this to consider; Why would you want to arm a potential enemy? In the Depression, it was a bit different, civility was more deeply embedded in people then. And that ammo was used for hunting. These days, damn few of us know how to successfully do it, even with hunting laws not a concern. In a WROL(Without Rule Of Law; same as SHTF, TEOTWAWKI) situation today, civility will be out the window fast; you said yourself, most people have less than five days food; actually three is the accepted figure, and having worked with grocery supply issues, resupply of stores simply won't happen past one or two truck runs. They will either be held back by warehouse managers that suddenly realize that that food is more important than the possibility of having that job again if ROL is re-established, or held up, as in intercepted by armed groups. When Mrs. Soccer mom realizes Skyler and Brianna don't have food, she will send Mr. mid-level accountant out to procure food any way he can. If he survives his first attempts, he will soon be as barbaric as any Hun in Atilla's Horde in order to feed those simpering, pampered, entitled brats and Mrs. Soccer mom. The guy you trade that extra 870 out of your inventory and a box of Buck may well come back at 3 AM for the rest of your stuff. You have to sleep sometime. 

Another thing that will be very, very, valuable in SHTF sitations is skill sets. Your skill as a gunsmith will be worth a lot more then than it is now. I personally have to downplay mine, I get people all the time wanting me to look at their guns, and I just don't have time. I do it for close friends, for 4-H families in Shooting Sports, and my own, of course. That isn't the only skill I have. I'm pretty handy in general, have a good knowledge of basic civil engineering (the very sort of stuff needed in such times), a good medical back ground (so I agree with #5 on your list) courtesy of Uncle Sugar who put me in a Med Bn, and personal interest because of medical issues. 

Water. You will need to treat water from Lake Michigan. You know as well as I do why. Boiling won't rid it of the heavy metals. That spring is a much better option. 

The World's Oldest Profession?  Who's going to need lawyers then? OH, oh, now I get it....[love]

If there is enough societal breakdown, that will either be taken at will from those who do not ally themselves with and remain physically near someone who can protect them from that. But, yes, that has always be around and always will. Pimps then will have to be 10x as barbaric as the current crop. 

Before such 'bartertowns' as you describe spring up, there will be a period of complete lawlessness before the 'warlords' will be able establish enough order for this to exsist. How long this is will depend on will depend on the completeness of societal breakdown. My observation is that the veneer of civilization is currently very, very thin, and it might take complete and draconian Martial Law to re-establish any kind of order.

A couple good books illustrating this are "One Second After" and "One Year After" by William R. Forschten. Well worth the read. 

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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #3 
If I need medicine or food and have none and the main thing I have to barter is ammo I have to barter with it.   In my rural farming area people either know each other personally or at a minimum know of you or know people you know.   There is of course still a risk from people you know in this type of situation and even family (Cain and Able come to mind) but here it is minimal.   Our threats are the hoards coming from the cities and they will run a gauntlet of farmers and country folks before they get this far.  They will not find easy pickings as locals are very self sufficient people and includes defending what's theirs and even defending their neighbors.   I am sure that all here will agree that rural communities will fair better in situations like we are talking about.  

Your point about water is a good one.   That starts me thinking about a home made distillery to distil water.   Gallons of freshly distilled water would also make a great barter item.  It would also be useful for medical purposes.    Going to make that a priority project as it is simple enough and there is plenty of wood for fuel.   Come to think of it there is plenty of corn around but the sugar would be an issue so JD's White Lighting will not be on the Barter Market.

Anyone have plans for a home made basic water distiller?

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RichRoy

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Reply with quote  #4 
If your going to watch "The Road"  make sure you have a bottle of anti depressants on hand.
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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #5 
As a boy I read the book " Alas Babylon".  I fist lived Jacksonville right off 103rd not far from NAS Cecil filed where my Dad was stationed.  I lived in Clay County Florida right below NAS Jacksonville and then in Jax Beach right below Mayport Navel base.   The book takes place in Palatka Florida not far south from where I lived.   In the book the main character sees a bright flash to the north.   He is concerned and tries to find out what happened.   He finally gets a long distance operator and tries to place a call to Jacksonville.  After a few tries the operator tells him " I'm sorry Sir, Jacksonville doesn't seem to be there."   It wasn't.  The book is how they deal with looters and all the issues in the aftermath of a nuclear attack.   Very eye opening even for a boy of my age.

I lived between three major bases.  NAS Cecil Field, NAS Jacksonville and Mayport Naval Base.  Prime targets for any attack on the USA and all within a 30 mile circle of each other.  You can bet multiple weapons were designated for that area.   I guess I was also impacted by the Cuban Missile Crises as my dad got a call at night and disappeared.  Turns out his ship the USS Jonas Ingham was in the Blockade.   

I am not a reactionary paranoid or even what you would call a preper.  Being a Floridian we were always stocked up on emergency supplies due to hurricanes so now I just stock up for longer term events.   I don't see a major nuclear attack in my life time but have concerns about pandemics and long term break downs in civil order.  Yellow stone Volcano is real and they only think they know how stable it is and there is a lot of stuff flying through this galaxy and I know chances are slim but stuff has hit us in the past and can again.  I hope when I leave this rock that my kids come to clean this house out and find all this stuff and see the dates and just throw it out as it was never used.  I worry for them as all parents and grandparents do but other then what I am doing there is nothing else to do but hope the worst case scenarios do not play out.  

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entropy

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yes, I just reread "Alas, Babylon" about a year ago. It seems an almost naive, wishful, "Hey, we get time to figure it out and piece it together" look at it. Society breaks down much slower in that book than it would now. Of course, it was written in 1959, so understandable. 

I like the " The Borrowed World" series by Franklin Horton. Contemporary, well thought out (though a bit formulaic), good instructional reading on how to plan, and better yet, how to think about what and how to utilize things in ways you have never thought of them before, an essential survival tool, indeed. 

Quote:
If your going to watch "The Road"  make sure you have a bottle of anti depressants on hand.


I felt that way about the TV movie, "The Day After". Everybody went around with a 'what does it matter' kind of attitude for a couple of days. Some never recovered.
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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #7 
I don't want to be a spoiler incase anyone wants to watch "The Road" but the message is never give up and also that things will come back.   

Think about this.   Earth is 4.6 Billion years old.   How many times has some form of intelligent life rose up only to fall either by their own folly or some other event?   We are under the impression we are the first but I don't think so.  To quote the great prophets "The Band", " Everything dies baby that's a fact, but maybe everything that dies some day comes back".  The movie "The Road" at least leaves the viewer with that hope.

So, it was not depressing for me.   What is depressing for me is looking in the mirror.  Who the F*** is that ugly old dude looking back at me?  But hey, I survived a lot to get this old and ugly and it sure beats the alternative, which is why we prepare for anything and everything. 

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RichRoy

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Reply with quote  #8 
The movie is worth watching.  But the word I would use to describe it is dreary.
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David Armstrong

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Reply with quote  #9 
Another good barter item is that whiskey your grandpa would get with the ammo.  A case of pint bottles of a nice hooch can get you a lot of things.  Regarding the gold/silver, I do like to have some of it around.  Precious metals have been recognized as valuable for a long time and I don't see any reason for that to change in the future.  Don't necessarily recommend a lot, but a roll of silver dimes, a roll of silver quarters, and few silver dollars might come in handy as they offer a recognized source of quality and quantity for the metal.  I've heard folks recommend against gold simply because it is hard to make change in a transaction. 
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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by combatshotgun
I have been told by several people that they have no concerns about any long term emergency planning as they have gold and silver in their safe.   The folly behind that line of thinking is this.  In a short term emergency that works fine but in a serious long term scenario that metal ain't worth spit.  You can't eat it, shoot it, drink it or heat with it.  You can't heal a wound or pull a tooth with it.  If things are bad enough all the Gold they have won't get them an ear of corn.

My Grandpa told me that during the depression you could walk into any speakeasy in Little Rock and lay a 32/20 cartridge (very popular hand gun of that day) on the counter and get a shot of top shelf Canadian Whiskey.  He said "Bullets are money Boy" and talked about having to pay ten cents for five .22 shells one time.  But those shells put food on the table.  Ammo may be one of the best items for barter if you have the quantities like I have.  I have more then I would ever need and can trade for items I am running short on.  I am going to start another post about what would be the best calibers for barter but let's let this one run for a while so people understand the importance of it.

In a long term situation people are going to establish a place to meet for trade.  It may be a corner in a neighborhood or the town square of a small town.  In a rural area it could simply be at an intersection of two roads or at a church.   There will be a place to go to barter, count on that.  So if you have a surplus of items and lack others you will be going there to trade.

What is going to be bartered for in a long term situation?  These are not necessarily in order of your priority as everyone's need are different.

1.  Food.  Everyone needs it and few will have it.  Most do not have long term food stores on hand and live day to day with most likely less then five days of food on hand.

2.  Water.   You don't need as much to drink as you think if you have plenty of food as you get water in the foods you eat.   Being most of the long term storage foods require water to re-hydrate water is going to be an issue.  Of course this depends on where you are.   We have a long term water storage facility here called lake Michigan and I close enough to it that water is not a concern.  I also have a spring fed stream very close.  In a short term situation most of you have a large supply of potable water already.   Your hot water tank.  I have 80 gallons there and another 30gals in the pump take in the crawl space.  There could be a scenario where local lakes are contaminate so counting on a lake may not be best course of action.  If ground water becomes contaminated we are screwed. 

3.  Fuel.   Heat is a major issue here in the north and fuel is need for cooking also.  Fuel for generators, gas for vehicles to go out and collect fuel or food will be at a premium.   Pellet stoves are a good think to have for emergency heat and a few pallets of pellets can go a long way.

4.  Guns and ammo.   You have to be able to protect yourself and family and also protect your food stores.  I personally feel that having less then a thousands rounds of ammo in the caliber of any weapon I own negates it as firearm and makes it simply a Billy Club.  But I am weird.  Still a sufficient amount of ammo with enough on hand to barter for items with can save your life.

5.  Medical Supplies.   I have put a lot of thought into this one and have built a medical kit to handle minor injuries.   Major injuries that would be routine in normal times can be deadly when 911 does not work.  I have a neighbor who is an RN and will be part of our Emergency plan and that is comfort but not every one has that.   So when planning this be sure to include books on illness and treatment so you will know what you are dealing with.  You already have a lot of these things in your home but make sure.  A medical kit is an item that has to be update as basic medication expire so keep up on this one.  Don't over look things like Alcohol, Calamine Lotion, Hydrogen Peroxide, Clove oil (for tooth aches) as old school items like these have long term shelf lives.  Infections kill and wound care will be a critical part of first aid.

6.  The Worlds Oldest Profession.   Don't think for one minute this will not be a major barter in a scenario where civilian law is none existent.   Always has been and always will.

A friend asked me what was the point to all of this?   In a major global incident like a globe killing meter, nuclear winter and others what is the point of surviving?   I replied that I did not know the answer other then I am a stubborn Jar Head and will fight with every thing I have to get that last possible second life.   I recommend finding the Movie "The Road" and watch that.   It will make you think.


Trailer to "the road." 
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David Armstrong

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Reply with quote  #11 
No!  Do not watch "The Road."  At least not now, wait until after Christmas[biggrin]!  One of the most, and quite possibly the most, depressing movie I have ever watched.  Do not ruin your holiday cheer, wait until a day or so after.  Then you will have a good excuse to get drunk on New Year's Eve, to drown out the sorrow.  Having said all that, I think it gives a much more accurate of life after TEOTWAKI than any other movie. 
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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
No!  Do not watch "The Road."  At least not now, wait until after Christmas[biggrin]!  One of the most, and quite possibly the most, depressing movie I have ever watched.  Do not ruin your holiday cheer, wait until a day or so after.  Then you will have a good excuse to get drunk on New Year's Eve, to drown out the sorrow.  Having said all that, I think it gives a much more accurate of life after TEOTWAKI than any other movie. 


WATCH THIS INSTEAD[thumb]


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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #13 
That's were we differ David.  After my last marriage "The Road" is actually cheery.


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David Armstrong

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Reply with quote  #14 
Ohhhhh....now THAT is depressing!
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Straight Shooter

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Reply with quote  #15 

Let me offer up, I dare say, an even more truly disturbing, realistic read- ONE SECOND AFTER.  What happens going forward one second after an EMP attack, written by a leading expert who has testified in front of
Congress and given many lectures on the subject. Please forgive my poor memory on the authors name..William Forschten? Takes place on Black Mountain, N.C...been thru there many many times.  Gents, reading the afterward by Newt Gingrich will chill you to the bone. EMP is almost weekly in the news now...a very real possibility. The book, tho "fiction"..uses real gov. stats & figures about who dies first, and how many over the next few months & first year. TERRIFYING. Dont want to turn this into a "my book is scarier than yours" thread...but this one will get you fired up. I read it in one sitting, couldnt stop.
BUT- as a Christian man, I KNOW who is in charge, and anything that happens will be part of His plan.

 

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