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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #1 
I love these old training videos. 



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entropy

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Reply with quote  #2 
When should cops use shotguns? 
When they're through f'ing around and want to get the job done. 

He must have had a hell of a spreader choke on that 870...distance was about 25 yards. If you stop it at 1:35, you'll see the only person he might might have hit besides the perp is Steven Goldberg. The toddler would have been hit before the mom, no way would Rosemary Fenner have been hit. 

He also had time to close before engaging, but chose to stop farther away. Poor tactics, not bad choice of weapon. 
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Unobtanium

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Reply with quote  #3 
I dunno...you gotta remember, this was the 70's. I have had Hornady Versatite buckshot spray patterns so large 11x16" targets only held 1 or 2 of my pellets at 15 yards. I can't imagine how bad 70's buckshot patterend in some cases!
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deputy584

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Reply with quote  #4 
The LE shotgun ammo we use in our 870's is Federal Flite Control Tactical, at 25 yards all 9 pellets are in the black on a B-27 target. I found this picture on armslist, it's an accurate depiction.   1783847_01_federal_flitecontrol_00_bucksh_640.jpg 

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Though force can protect in emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration and cooperation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace.


Dwight D. Eisenhower 

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Unobtanium

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Reply with quote  #5 
Depends on the gun. Flite Control is VERY picky. For example, at 25 yards some Flite control will be 12-16" for me, and some will be 8-12". I found the #1 patterns the tightest. Then out of a Mossberg, it will be 12" at 50 yards. No matter what flavor. It loves overbore, and Italian guns just aren't.
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entropy

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
The LE shotgun ammo we use in our 870's is Federal Flite Control Tactical


Not in the 1970's, though. There were no LE rounds then, buck was the same as on the Sporting goods store shelf. 
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Rangenazi

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Reply with quote  #7 
Holy Mother of Sweet Baby Jesus!!!!!!
 I just had a flash back. They showed us this video when I went through the academy. LE rounds??? No such thing back then. We used 2 3/4 inch Magnum rounds. Ithaca Model 37's.
 Started out with a Smith and Wesson Model 10 4 inch barrel. Ammo? 158 grain lead SWC. We carried dump pouches because they were more modern than belt loops. Later I showed up with them new fangled speed loaders. Told to put them away as they weren't authorized. Then we went to Smith & Wesson Model 66's. We used the 110 grain +P+ Treasury load. Good results in actual shootings. 
 Yup I do love these old training films. Ancient. Hey wait a minute! Must mean I'm ancient. LOL
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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #8 
Could not watch past the first scene.   I guess in California they have shotguns that throw a 16 foot pattern at 25 yards.   If you count the cars parked there are less then five car length parked from the perp to the Officer.   Yes, I know they have to embellish to make the point but make valid points.   How does that officer know when or where he is going to use his weapon in that incident.   So what I guess they are saying is don't use a shotgun in urban settings.  Couldn't watch long enough to find out.

Once the perp engages the Officer that Officer first priority is to end the threat against his life.  He took the shotgun because it was his best change.   In the video he makes a perfect center mass shot with his revolver at what they say is 50 yards so maybe since he is a Distinguished Master Shooter he should have responded with his handgun.

When to use a Shotgun?   If you read my web site then you know the answer.   If not, then here it is.   "If you're going to a gun fight, take a Shotgun.   If you can't take a shotgun, don't go".

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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #9 
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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #10 
 This is a U.S. National Guard combat shotgun training video, made in the 1990's. In this video, the viewer will be showed the versatility of the shotgun, the variety of the ammunition, the application for the gun, a demonstration of it's firepower, some training concepts, how to get help with your shotgun training program, and how the abilities develop by a skill shotgun marksman can be applied to other weapons. A combat shotgun is a shotgun that is intended for use in an offensive role, typically by a military force. The earliest shotguns specifically designed for combat were the trench guns or trench shotguns issued in World War I. While limited in range, the multiple projectiles typically used in a shotgun shell provide increased hit probability unmatched by other small arms.
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combatshotgun

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Reply with quote  #11 
I can't remember what year the FBI did away with the "Crouch" shooting position but it is in the above 1974 film.   They finally figured out why so many officers were getting head wounds, when they realized that many Departments used their shooting stance and the Officers were crouching down and placing their head in the shooters natural stance line of fire.

I loved the skip shooting in the FBI Video.   We either saw this video or one like in my Academy in 1978.   Learning that skill is very effective in many situation.  Second most important thing to learn to survive is knowing the difference between "Cover" and "Concealment".  It is so simple that Jarheads like me not only learned it but remember it to this day.   Concealment hides you or parts of you from sight.   Cover is something that can stop a projectile from striking you.    However, if in Hollywood things like living room couches, bushes and sheetrock walls stop bullets so if ever out there don't worry about real Cover.

The shotgun part was a joy to watch.  We had that same 870 as there was no "Police" Model.  Ours was the 870 Wingmaster with 20" Bead sight barrel, and some with the 3 shot extension.   They had that Waffle recoil pad.  That pad got so hard over the years that we did not need Rams to break open doors as that pad was hard enough to splinter and Oak door.

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Francis Lynch

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by combatshotgun
Could not watch past the first scene.   I guess in California they have shotguns that throw a 16 foot pattern at 25 yards.   If you count the cars parked there are less then five car length parked from the perp to the Officer.   Yes, I know they have to embellish to make the point but make valid points.   How does that officer know when or where he is going to use his weapon in that incident.   So what I guess they are saying is don't use a shotgun in urban settings.  Couldn't watch long enough to find out.

Once the perp engages the Officer that Officer first priority is to end the threat against his life.  He took the shotgun because it was his best change.   In the video he makes a perfect center mass shot with his revolver at what they say is 50 yards so maybe since he is a Distinguished Master Shooter he should have responded with his handgun.

When to use a Shotgun?   If you read my web site then you know the answer.   If not, then here it is.   "If you're going to a gun fight, take a Shotgun.   If you can't take a shotgun, don't go".



 "If you're going to a gun fight, take a Shotgun.   If you can't take a shotgun, don't go".
This is better than this advice.[biggrin]
Related image



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Mark in Alger

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Reply with quote  #13 
The guys in the National Guard videos are surgeons! Beautifully illustrates how training and practice are far more critical than bells, whistles, and “super ammo” to the outcomes of shooting engagements. I’d be very interested in finding some quality training of this nature in my area (MI). Anyone know of such classes?
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cjw79

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Reply with quote  #14 
I use this video in the firearms portion of the Basic Peace Officer Course (BPOC). My opinion of the film is it is an excellent example of creating circumstances to justify policy/tactics. If you were a chief of police and didn't want your officers to use the shotgun this was a good "training film" to use back in the day. 

Today I find it a good example to use in the classroom as a lead up to a demonstration on the range showing the difference from current police marketed ammunition such as Federal Flight Control/Hornady Versalite; 1990s police marketed ammunition like Remington Tac 8 and something very old school like Sellier & Bellot. Helps people new to shotguns understand Youtube don't tell the whole story and things do change. 
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David Armstrong

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Reply with quote  #15 
Can't tell since I can't access the video, but for those of you who weren't around in the good old days we used to WANT the shot load to spread rapidly and largely.  In fact there were even choke-like modifiers to increase the spread of the shot.  
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